OS16 Cards/Photos

[seymourbarf]

I recently acquired the following three OS16 cards/photos:



The images on the front are black and white, and are high-quality. The fronts are glossy, and tacky to the touch. Though they have the "peel here" arrows, these are not die cut and do not appear to be stickers. They are not printed on regular card stock, and in fact the backs (which are otherwise blank) say "Epson Photo Paper" in faint print. 

The person I bought these from misrepresented them in their listing, but I'm wondering just what the heck they are. I suspect these are made-at-home, "bootleg" cards.

However, the card images are very high quality, and have the card numbers and copyrights on them (just like regular OS cards). If these are bootlegs, how were they made? Were high-quality images of the OS16 cards made avaliable for someone to be able to capture such a high-quality image on Epson photo paper? Or is this something actually produced by Topps?

[seymourbarf]

Mar 15, 2019 16:27:23 GMT -5 seymourbarf said:

I recently acquired the following three OS16 cards/photos:



The images on the front are black and white, and are high-quality. The fronts are glossy, and tacky to the touch. Though they have the "peel here" arrows, these are not die cut and do not appear to be stickers. They are not printed on regular card stock, and in fact the backs (which are otherwise blank) say "Epson Photo Paper" in faint print. 

The person I bought these from misrepresented them in their listing, but I'm wondering just what the heck they are. I suspect these are made-at-home, "bootleg" cards.

However, the card images are very high quality, and have the card numbers and copyrights on them (just like regular OS cards). If these are bootlegs, how were they made? Were high-quality images of the OS16 cards made avaliable for someone to be able to capture such a high-quality image on Epson photo paper? Or is this something actually produced by Topps?

Also, interestingly these happen to be the three pieces from OS16 that were reworked and used in the Trash Can Trolls set.

[Mad Mike]

At first glance, it looks like someone had good scans of the black and white separation sheets that were pulled from the Topps dumpsters and had them printed up on photo paper. The interesting thing though, is that they have the logo present on them, where none of the scans I've ever seen before did (including these 3). There's more info on the ins and outs of OS16 at GPK World, including scans of some of these and even card proofs: members.tripod.com/garbage_pail_kids/US_16th_Series.htm

[seymourbarf]

Mar 18, 2019 8:24:21 GMT -5 Mad Mike said:

At first glance, it looks like someone had good scans of the black and white separation sheets that were pulled from the Topps dumpsters and had them printed up on photo paper. The interesting thing though, is that they have the logo present on them, where none of the scans I've ever seen before did (including these 3). There's more info on the ins and outs of OS16 at GPK World, including scans of some of these and even card proofs: members.tripod.com/garbage_pail_kids/US_16th_Series.htm

Thanks! Yeah, I had looked at GPKWorld already to see if it could shed some light (that's how I found out the three concepts were re-used for the Trash Can Trolls set). But that is an interesting point about the GPK banner.

I am on the fence about keeping them. The seller described them as "sketches" and included a photo of card backs that do not match the backs of these cards/photos. So I might ask for a refund. I just wanted to find out first if this was something that Topps made (in which case, I would keep them).

[Mad Mike]

Definitely not sketches, and it is intriguing that only these 3 were used, especially since the entire 'a' set has been seen in scans (not sure where the 'b' set is hiding). Aaron and I did a lot of looking into these at one point as he was adding info to his site and working with me to try and recreate the set as it was originally intended. You can see some of the work in the box, wrapper, uncut sheet, and comic back mock-ups (I'm still forever working on, and tweaking, the card fronts).

I highly doubt Topps made these, as they most likely would not have used photo paper. Most proofs were just printed on whatever cheap paper/card stock they had lying around (quality didn't matter since they were just proofs). Anything from this series that did leave Topps officially seems to be pre-cut and in sealed card slabs, the rest seems to be uncut/uncorrected proof sheets that were saved from a dumpster. Some of these proofs (seemingly the corrected ones) did turn up at Topps eventually and had to be used to make the ANS1 set (which is why it's a rather dark print overall). They had to do this because the original artwork was gone, and remains missing to this day.

Do you have a link to the auction/seller/more photos so that we could investigate further?

[seymourbarf]

Mar 18, 2019 9:27:40 GMT -5 Mad Mike said:

Definitely not sketches, and it is intriguing that only these 3 were used, especially since the entire 'a' set has been seen in scans (not sure where the 'b' set is hiding). Aaron and I did a lot of looking into these at one point as he was adding info to his site and working with me to try and recreate the set as it was originally intended. You can see some of the work in the box, wrapper, uncut sheet, and comic back mock-ups (I'm still forever working on, and tweaking, the card fronts).

I highly doubt Topps made these, as they most likely would not have used photo paper. Most proofs were just printed on whatever cheap paper/card stock they had lying around (quality didn't matter since they were just proofs). Anything from this series that did leave Topps officially seems to be pre-cut and in sealed card slabs, the rest seems to be uncut/uncorrected proof sheets that were saved from a dumpster. Some of these proofs (seemingly the corrected ones) did turn up at Topps eventually and had to be used to make the ANS1 set (which is why it's a rather dark print overall). They had to do this because the original artwork was gone, and remains missing to this day.

Do you have a link to the auction/seller/more photos so that we could investigate further?

Definitely, here you go:

www.ebay.com/itm/TRASH-CAN-TROLLS-1992-TOPPS-SKETCH-CARDS-SET-OF-3-Great-Condition/233136282491?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Thanks for looking into this!

[Mad Mike]

Well, the plot thickens, or rather thin-ens! There's not much in the way of a description there, especially since the info seems to be for some other item entirely. Even the photo of the backs is actually for one of the seller's other listings (www.ebay.com/itm/TRASH-CAN-TROLLS-1992-TOPPS-BASE-CARD-SET-OF-3-Great-Condition/233136281176) which is very similar in description to these. Also, in the seller's pics I now noticed that they seem to be hand cut, which is another indication of this probably being a custom made item.

I would still ask for more opinions on here, but I'm pretty confident that these are not from Topps. However, they do raise a pretty interesting question about the materials that were printed by Topps before the set was cancelled. Can I bother you to make as hi-res of a scan of each, so I can get a closeup look at them (specifically the logos)? I want to compare them to the separation proofs that have been circulating for some years now and see if the logo was photoshopped in or if these were scanned from a different proof that actually had the logo printed on it by Topps. If not photoshopped, these could prove that other proofs are out there, that until now, weren't known.


And you're very welcome!

[seymourbarf]

Mar 18, 2019 11:14:19 GMT -5 Mad Mike said:

Well, the plot thickens, or rather thin-ens! There's not much in the way of a description there, especially since the info seems to be for some other item entirely. Even the photo of the backs is actually for one of the seller's other listings (www.ebay.com/itm/TRASH-CAN-TROLLS-1992-TOPPS-BASE-CARD-SET-OF-3-Great-Condition/233136281176) which is very similar in description to these. Also, in the seller's pics I now noticed that they seem to be hand cut, which is another indication of this probably being a custom made item.

I would still ask for more opinions on here, but I'm pretty confident that these are not from Topps. However, they do raise a pretty interesting question about the materials that were printed by Topps before the set was cancelled. Can I bother you to make as hi-res of a scan of each, so I can get a closeup look at them (specifically the logos)? I want to compare them to the separation proofs that have been circulating for some years now and see if the logo was photoshopped in or if these were scanned from a different proof that actually had the logo printed on it by Topps. If not photoshopped, these could prove that other proofs are out there, that until now, weren't known.


And you're very welcome!

Yes, I can scan these at work and PM the files to you. However, I won't be able to do that until this Friday.

As for these cards being hand-cut, they do seem to be exactly the same size (leading me to believe they at least weren't free-hand cut). But I do note that Stoked Stu has what appears to be a printer line on the bottom of the card. 

[seymourbarf]

Mar 18, 2019 11:31:55 GMT -5 seymourbarf said:

Mar 18, 2019 11:14:19 GMT -5 Mad Mike said:

Well, the plot thickens, or rather thin-ens! There's not much in the way of a description there, especially since the info seems to be for some other item entirely. Even the photo of the backs is actually for one of the seller's other listings (www.ebay.com/itm/TRASH-CAN-TROLLS-1992-TOPPS-BASE-CARD-SET-OF-3-Great-Condition/233136281176) which is very similar in description to these. Also, in the seller's pics I now noticed that they seem to be hand cut, which is another indication of this probably being a custom made item.

I would still ask for more opinions on here, but I'm pretty confident that these are not from Topps. However, they do raise a pretty interesting question about the materials that were printed by Topps before the set was cancelled. Can I bother you to make as hi-res of a scan of each, so I can get a closeup look at them (specifically the logos)? I want to compare them to the separation proofs that have been circulating for some years now and see if the logo was photoshopped in or if these were scanned from a different proof that actually had the logo printed on it by Topps. If not photoshopped, these could prove that other proofs are out there, that until now, weren't known.


And you're very welcome!

Yes, I can scan these at work and PM the files to you. However, I won't be able to do that until this Friday.

As for these cards being hand-cut, they do seem to be exactly the same size (leading me to believe they at least weren't free-hand cut). But I do note that Stoked Stu has what appears to be a printer line on the bottom of the card. 

And I think I am going to hold onto these, rather than return them to the seller. Even though they probably aren't from Topps, it seems they are important toward unlocking some history about the production of the OS16 set. That makes them desirable, especially since I paid only $15 for them.

[seymourbarf]

Mar 18, 2019 11:33:43 GMT -5 seymourbarf said:

Mar 18, 2019 11:31:55 GMT -5 seymourbarf said:

Yes, I can scan these at work and PM the files to you. However, I won't be able to do that until this Friday.

As for these cards being hand-cut, they do seem to be exactly the same size (leading me to believe they at least weren't free-hand cut). But I do note that Stoked Stu has what appears to be a printer line on the bottom of the card. 

And I think I am going to hold onto these, rather than return them to the seller. Even though they probably aren't from Topps, it seems they are important toward unlocking some history about the production of the OS16 set. That makes them desirable, especially since I paid only $15 for them.

Actually, Mad Mike would it be worthwhile for me to contact the seller to find out more info about where the seller obtained these? Would you have any specific questions you want me to ask?

[seymourbarf]

Mar 18, 2019 11:35:34 GMT -5 seymourbarf said:

Mar 18, 2019 11:33:43 GMT -5 seymourbarf said:

And I think I am going to hold onto these, rather than return them to the seller. Even though they probably aren't from Topps, it seems they are important toward unlocking some history about the production of the OS16 set. That makes them desirable, especially since I paid only $15 for them.

Actually, Mad Mike would it be worthwhile for me to contact the seller to find out more info about where the seller obtained these? Would you have any specific questions you want me to ask?

. Mad Mike The seller doesn't know much about them. They said they bought them along with 10k+ other cards a few years ago from a private collector. But unfortunately the seller isn't knowledgeable about GPK and couldn't give me more information than that.

[Mad Mike]

No rush on the scans!

I can't make out the printer line in your photo, unless you are talking about the solid line at the bottom of the art, which is also there on the original painting:


I was thinking that I'd probably hold on to 'em too, due to the possible historical enlightenment they can shed. Especially since they could top the best scans I've seen of them to date:


Definitely ask about their lineage, where they got them from, what they believe they are, or if they even made them themselves. Particularly figuring out how these proofs include the logo would be nice.

[seymourbarf]

Mar 18, 2019 12:42:46 GMT -5 Mad Mike said:

No rush on the scans!

I can't make out the printer line in your photo, unless you are talking about the solid line at the bottom of the art, which is also there on the original painting:


I was thinking that I'd probably hold on to 'em too, due to the possible historical enlightenment they can shed. Especially since they could top the best scans I've seen of them to date:


Definitely ask about their lineage, where they got them from, what they believe they are, or if they even made them themselves. Particularly figuring out how these proofs include the logo would be nice.

No, there is a printer line at the very bottom right of the card, in the white border (not in the image). I took another photo and circled it in red. There is also a more faint printer line at the top right corner of the card, again in the white border (though this one is harder to see):




I got very little info from the seller. They don't know anything more than I've already said - they got these cards from a private collector who was selling off 10k+ cards. 

[Mad Mike]

Ah! So, it definitely seems to have been printed at home then.
Still very curious of the image's origin. Especially since it has a blue hue to it in your latest pic, so it could be a scan from another proof sheet after corrections were made, this one being closer to a final approval. Hmmm.

[seymourbarf]

Mar 19, 2019 9:53:06 GMT -5 Mad Mike said:

Ah! So, it definitely seems to have been printed at home then.
Still very curious of the image's origin. Especially since it has a blue hue to it in your latest pic, so it could be a scan from another proof sheet after corrections were made, this one being closer to a final approval. Hmmm.

I think any blue hue was due to the lighting in the room when I took the photo. When I look at the cards, they seem purely black and white to me.

As for that printer line, didn't OS15 have a couple of error cards with similar lines? Vise Guy and Tied Di, I think. That's not to say these OS16 cards were printed by Topps, because I believe they most likely were printed at home.

[seymourbarf]

Mar 19, 2019 9:53:06 GMT -5 Mad Mike said:

Ah! So, it definitely seems to have been printed at home then.
Still very curious of the image's origin. Especially since it has a blue hue to it in your latest pic, so it could be a scan from another proof sheet after corrections were made, this one being closer to a final approval. Hmmm.

.Mad Mike , here are the scans. This is as high-quality as I can get them (600 dpi by 600 dpi). I hope they are good enough. I can email you the jpegs if you PM me your email address. 

[Mad Mike]

Hey, so sorry for not replying sooner! I got logged out and didn't see your reply until now!

These scans are great, thanks! I can't see any obvious evidence that the logo was added in photoshop (or by some other trickery), so the originals of these seem to come from a different source than the proofs that have been circulating for years (that were found in the Topps dumpster).

I might send 'em along to Aaron (GPK World) to get his opinion on them.

Truly interesting...

[seymourbarf]

Apr 18, 2019 9:03:06 GMT -5 Mad Mike said:

Hey, so sorry for not replying sooner! I got logged out and didn't see your reply until now!

These scans are great, thanks! I can't see any obvious evidence that the logo was added in photoshop (or by some other trickery), so the originals of these seem to come from a different source than the proofs that have been circulating for years (that were found in the Topps dumpster).

I might send 'em along to Aaron (GPK World) to get his opinion on them.

Truly interesting...

Please do, and let us know what he thinks. Thanks!

[Mad Mike]

Sorry for the long wait! Here's Aaron's reply about them:

INTERESTING.
I would definitely keep those for $15.

Both Wayne's and Matt's sites contain some or all of the 'separation sheet' images; the 'B&W' images that don't capture the CMYK printing colors or white (#'s, etc).
But the images you sent are much bigger, as you're well aware, and, as you guys mentioned, strangely contain the 'CM' and 'MY' colored GPK logos.
It is a bit bizarre that the three happen to be the concepts used for the TCT set as well, as was also pointed out.
There definitely could've been another 'sheet' between the B&W separation sheet and the color correction proof sheets ().
Especially since the old B&W images and these both have that thin black line around the artwork that doesn't show with the color sheets and card proofs.
Lastly, the one thing that bugs me is 660a TAD Ill, he's not a puzzle piece like the other two and shouldn't have that trademark line... his trademark line is extra dark, but he also appears to be the sharpest image.
That trademark line doesn't show up on the B&W separation sheet or the color correction proofs.
Could the GPK logos have been added later? 628a has a blue logo and might copy a bit lighter than red? I'm sure they'd sell better with a GPK logo within the header.
Regardless... wherever the source came from, very nice image sizes... a mystery!

[seymourbarf]

May 16, 2019 11:21:34 GMT -5 Mad Mike said:

Sorry for the long wait! Here's Aaron's reply about them:

INTERESTING.
I would definitely keep those for $15.

Both Wayne's and Matt's sites contain some or all of the 'separation sheet' images; the 'B&W' images that don't capture the CMYK printing colors or white (#'s, etc).
But the images you sent are much bigger, as you're well aware, and, as you guys mentioned, strangely contain the 'CM' and 'MY' colored GPK logos.
It is a bit bizarre that the three happen to be the concepts used for the TCT set as well, as was also pointed out.
There definitely could've been another 'sheet' between the B&W separation sheet and the color correction proof sheets ().
Especially since the old B&W images and these both have that thin black line around the artwork that doesn't show with the color sheets and card proofs.
Lastly, the one thing that bugs me is 660a TAD Ill, he's not a puzzle piece like the other two and shouldn't have that trademark line... his trademark line is extra dark, but he also appears to be the sharpest image.
That trademark line doesn't show up on the B&W separation sheet or the color correction proofs.
Could the GPK logos have been added later? 628a has a blue logo and might copy a bit lighter than red? I'm sure they'd sell better with a GPK logo within the header.
Regardless... wherever the source came from, very nice image sizes... a mystery!

Thanks for following up on this. It is very interesting indeed! Apparently there is more to be discovered regarding the production of the OS16 set.